Could Revolution Happen Today?

[Triton]

My wife and I were having a discussion last night. I am of the opinion that, short of some sort of miraculous electoral rebellion, our country is so far down the tubes that we need something on the order of the American Revolution to set it right.

The problem is, today, that sort of thing would be called "terrorism".

I don't think the men in our nation have the stomach for what we did 229 years ago. This next comment is going to be seen as inflammatory by some here, but so bet it: we even condemn people who use justifiable violence to save innocent lives (you all know what I am talking about).

What has happened to us? Why have even Christians lost the ability to see right and wrong so much that we accept perversion and wanton slaughter of innocents - and call it states rights?

[BuckeyeGreg]

Triton,
I have thought about this same subject and I also wonder what it would take to turn some heads in the country. During the American Revolution, my forefathers knew who the enemy was and what the objective was- make the Redcoats go home to England. There was a prescribed course of action and the form of sacrifice was easier to discern and move forward with. Living then, I hope I would have made the same choice as my ancestors. Today the enemy is not as well defined and moving forward with a plan of action is not as easy to discern. This is why I try to do what I can, by learning and helping the people around me learn what it means to be good citizens, people who follow the commandments, and good fathers and mothers who will raise righteous posterity. I involve myself with local politics so that I can try and make a difference, try to be a voice of reason and a light on the hill. I am not perfect and I understand the people around me are not either, but I will not let certain issues rest until the the right thing is done. That is where my American Revolution starts, it starts in my home and spreads outward. I know that is not what you have in mind, but I can't see it happening another way. I care about my community and my country, having lived in the former Soviet Union I know what it means to have my freedoms dictated to me and then have it called good. It starts with people like you and me, determined to make a difference.

[SWhiteman]

II Chr. 7:14

We don't need revolution. We certainly don't seek it. We need to humble ourselves, seek God's Face, repent of our selfish dispositions toward the bread and circuses Ceaser hands out and rely on the Providential care of God, and He may heal our land.

We are that far gone. The first step in the repentance, I believe, is to refrain from taking from Ceasar that which he may not lawfully give, and stop voting for ungodly candidates, no matter how terrible his opponent. Lastly, we need to, like the early Church, create alternative organisations that will capture the hearts and loyalty of the masses away from the Empire as it exists.

[Triton]

II Chr. 7:14

This is clearly not a call to pacifism. It is a call to humility, repentance, and reliance on God. These are all actions one can take even in war. Especially in war.

I believe we are at war. As far as whether or not we need a revolution - be it electoral or armed, we are already in the middle of one. The enemy has the airwaves, public classrooms, and the scalpels of abortionists as their weapons - and the body count is already over 40 million. How much longer will we stand by and let it happen?

[SWhiteman]

Agreed, sort of.

There are a host of enemies of God warring against Him and His anointed. By the way, I'm a post-millenialist, so I believe the final victory of the Cross and Resurrection to be inevitable on Earth before Christ's return. That is relevant, in that I don't advocate for a worsening of the world. I believe in near total victory before His return. I believe that return is far off. I believe that my children are more likely than not going to live under greater tyranny than we do -- and we presently do.

All that being said, I invoke the Huguenot interpretation of II Chr. 7:14 as expressed in Vindicae Contra Tyrannos by Stephanus Junius Brutus. In Vindicae, Brutus, after a dissertation on the three covenants of government goes on to political questions about what when the King goes tyrant? Well, the Parliament or judges can resist. What when the Parliament goes tyrant? The king or judges can resist. What when two go tyrant? The other one can resist.

But what when they all go tyrant? It is then that we ought to realise that such tyrants are permitted by God to rule due to our sin. Thus, we must humble ourselves and seek His face.

We are in an even more grave situation than in 1776. In 1776, we had elected officials who were willing to interpose between the people and the king. Sure, some wanted to wait, some were more hotly revolutionary, but finally they all hung together, that they wouldn't hang separately.

But make no mistake, the signers of the declaration were not guys like you or me. They were officially constituted political leaders. You and I (with all due respect) are but subjects to the Tyrant -- and our elected leaders, Federal, State and Local (put in there by people too sinful, selfish or foolish to realise that they too have conspired to place us under abject tyranny) have connived and conspired with the Senior Tyrant in the White House, his 9 goons in black robes, and however many Federal spooks he has hired to keep us all in line. Don't forget what was reported on this site (http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=320), Jay Sekulow was "tapped by the White House to build the coalition for judicial confirmation battles." There is an actual White House Staffer, Tim Goeglein (http://www.mediatransparency.org/story.php?storyID=57) whose job, he derives his paycheck for this, is to keep the Religious Right in line with the GOP.

Government is by the consent of the governed. That is a fact, a law if you will. It is not a political theory, it is a default position. If the people withdraw their consent, the government cannot endure. It is time, in my view, to separate ourselves to the extent we can, relying on God, to avoid the coming judgment. Rev. 18:4.

America is being judged with a worm. Little by little, our covering is being eaten and no one notices. Most are looking for the dire calamity and absent any showing of that, they think they are safe. One day, we will all wake up and America will be no more. As for now, we are being fleeced.

It is time to wake up. It is time to repent. It is time to refuse to elect any one who will violate his Oath and the covenant he takes with God to rule lawfully.

We are in revolution against God, and He sits on His throne and laughs at the little men who declare, "let break His bands assunder, and cast away His cords from us."

[Triton]

But what when they all go tyrant? It is then that we ought to realise that such tyrants are permitted by God to rule due to our sin. Thus, we must humble ourselves and seek His face.

Oh this is sad. It's where we are now.

[samsamsamm2003]

I can see what you are all saying. But this sort of thing has been brought up before just before the Louisiana Purchase the Kentukian's were angry because they needed to get their products through New Orleans so they thretend to secead and when they were about to buy the "Lousiana Territory" the New Englander's felt that an uncivilized popoulation would become the majority so they threatend to secead. Thus poor old Jefferson had to do a lot of work to tell the New Englander's it was O.K. So when the Civil War came around Lincoln's government had to change the Law's around so sesession wouldent be accepted as much as it was before. So personally i think that a much less drastic measure than Revolution could and should happen to bring us back to some of the old way's remember one vote goes along way.

[Jaime]

Under Lincoln the government did not "change the law" to make secession unacceptable.

The States did not delegate away their authority to remove themselves from the voluntary compact. In fact, the Federal government under the dictatorial Lincoln, violated the compact by blockading the South and, later, by calling the militia (an authority delegated only to the Legislature in Article 1). Lincoln and the North, ie the Federal government, were the ones involved in real rebellion against the law.

We accepted the moniker of Rebels as a badge of honor, for if the tyrant violates the law and is the rebel, then those he calls rebels are really the law abiding.

Deo Vindice

[SWhiteman]

Well said Jaime. War is like having an argument: it never determines anything, it just disarms the opponant for a time.

[darlo]

The only "revolution" that I as a Christian wish for is a peaceful revolution. We should do all we can for the glory of Christ, and let our Lord judge them in the next life. As it says in Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

[Triton]

The only "revolution" that I as a Christian wish for is a peaceful revolution. We should do all we can for the glory of Christ, and let our Lord judge them in the next life. As it says in Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

You are correct - but I was not speaking of vengeance. Who would not defend his family if attacked? Many of us would even defend a neighbor, or a complete stranger if we were in such a position and that person was in danger.

[darlo]

What I am trying to figure out is how is the best way to change the attitude of the country. This is something that weighs very heavy on my heart. I greatly desire to see this country turn back to Christianity and Christian principals, but I don't think it will happen through force (i.e. laws) I would just like to know - What can I do? I am looking for fresh new ideas to help save this country from God's wrath. Please, What can I do?

[Triton]

What I am trying to figure out is how is the best way to change the attitude of the country. This is something that weighs very heavy on my heart. I greatly desire to see this country turn back to Christianity and Christian principals, but I don't think it will happen through force (i.e. laws) I would just like to know - What can I do? I am looking for fresh new ideas to help save this country from God's wrath. Please, What can I do?

SWhiteman summed it up rather well in his post (http://www.theamericanview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=211&postcount=3). When you say you don't think it will happen by force, just remember, it has already occurred that way. The first shot was fired years ago - but we have been complacent.

[samsamsamm2003]

Under Lincoln the government did not "change the law" to make secession unacceptable.

The States did not delegate away their authority to remove themselves from the voluntary compact. In fact, the Federal government under the dictatorial Lincoln, violated the compact by blockading the South and, later, by calling the militia (an authority delegated only to the Legislature in Article 1). Lincoln and the North, ie the Federal government, were the ones involved in real rebellion against the law.

We accepted the moniker of Rebels as a badge of honor, for if the tyrant violates the law and is the rebel, then those he calls rebels are really the law abiding.

Deo Vindice

Alright, alright i made a mistake but i stand firm on the idea the the Civil War changed the way we look at secession today. No need to get angry at the Billy Yank who's probably the only one here.

[Jaime]

I am not angry and there is nothing to apologise. I have learned that wrong presuppositions must be corrected, early, so that proper understanding and communication can occur. Always understand the presuppostions of an argument and challenge them when they are wrong. If you do not, you will lose the debate.

What can be done, in human terms? All we can do is to walk humbly before our God and to act and think in ways that will not break His laws

[Flick]

We need to humble ourselves, seek God's Face, repent of our selfish dispositions toward the bread and circuses Ceaser hands out and rely on the Providential care of God, and He may heal our land.
I don't know, but I'd guess that most if not all here would agree that American society is heading increasingly toward decadent hedonism, calling good evil and evil good, etc. If born-again Christians are on the decline and anti-Christian sentiments are on the increase, how will our relatively small numbers repenting turn the nation around if it hasn't already? Do you have in mind a particular number of born-again Christians who need to so repent? What percentage must repent to effect this chage? Is there a biblical precedent for the kind of repentence you're envisioning and in what ways does it apply and/or not apply to today's America? It's fine to theorize about such a widespread repentance, but what's the plan to make it happen and whose plan is it?

It is time to refuse to elect any one who will violate his Oath and the covenant he takes with God to rule lawfully.
Oh if only the decision to elect which candidates were mine alone! But I'm with you. OK, now how do we elect the right candidates? Let's make that happen. Let's not even wait; let's make it happen this next election, not only at the POTUS level, but also with all seats in Congress and every member of every state government. And while we're at it...

I'm obviously being facetious here. I find your statement that somehow it's up to us'ns here to elect the right people somewhat empty. Libertarian-minded voters are not the only voters. How is our repentance going to reach non-libertarian-minded voters to vote the right way? I'm not saying there's no connection between mass repentence and national change, but I would guess that God would do it the way He's done it in the past if He were going to do it, which means He would raise up one (e.g., Moses, Judith, Gideon, David) or more (e.g., David's mighty men) individuals to carry out His will. He would equip him/her/them with wisdom, with a plan, and with everything else he/she/they would need. Can we assume that God's method would be more diplomatic or utilizing some level of active, even violent, resistance?

One thing to think about is that God has used violent means in the past to achieve His will regarding nations (Israel and the Philistines, Israel and the inhabitants of Canaan, Judea and the Syro-Phoenician Greeks). God is our healer, but does that mean that we should refuse to see a doctor? God is our provider, but does that mean we don't have to work? God is our defender, but does that mean we shouldn't take reasonable steps to see to the physical protection of ourselves, our families, our neighbors, those in our communities, and innocents in general?

We are in revolution against God, and He sits on His throne and laughs at the little men who declare, "let break His bands assunder, and cast away His cords from us."
True, but He lets those in revolution against Him continue to rebel. He gives us the freedom to choose to accept Him or reject Him, both as individuals and as nations. We can talk until the cows come home about what God would or wouldn't do. Has anyone (or preferably several people) spent a season of prayer and fasting to seek God on this matter?

2Sa. 23:2-7 – “The Spirit of YHWH spoke through me; his word was on my tongue. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: ‘When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God, he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.’ ...But evil men are all to be cast aside like thorns, which are not gathered with the hand. Whoever touches thorns uses a tool of iron or the shaft of a spear; they are burned up where they lie.”

Ju. 5:8-9 – “New gods were chosen; then war was in the gates. Not a shield or a spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart goes out to the commanders of Israel, the volunteers among the people; bless YHWH!”

Lk. 22:36 – “And He said to them, ‘But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.’”

When you say you don't think it will happen by force, just remember, it has already occurred that way. The first shot was fired years ago - but we have been complacent.
This reminds me of the line by Aragorn from the second in the LOTR movies, "Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not."

[Flick]

You are correct - but I was not speaking of vengeance. Who would not defend his family if attacked? Many of us would even defend a neighbor, or a complete stranger if we were in such a position and that person was in danger.
I'm sure you realize that defending one's family if attacked is not a form of vengeance, but I just wanted to make that point of clarification (Ex. 22:2).