Act Of God Destroys New Orleans [Archive]

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Areopagus

1st September 2005, 04:38

http://www.covenantnews.com/repent050901.htm

PHILADELPHIA, PA. September 1 /Covenant News Wire Service/ -- Just days before “Southern Decadence”, an annual homosexual celebration attracting tens of thousands of people to the French Quarters section of New Orleans, an act of God destroys the city.

“Southern Decadence” has a history of filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars. Last year, a local pastor sent video footage of sex acts being performed in front of police to the mayor, city council, and the media. City officials simply ignored the footage and continued to welcome and praise the weeklong celebration as being an “exciting event”. However, Hurricane Katrina has put an end to the annual celebration of sin.

On the official “Southern Decadence” website (www.SouthernDecadence.com), it states that the annual event brought in “125,000 revelers” to New Orleans last year, increasing by thousands each year, and up from “over 50,000 revelers” in 1997. This year’s 34th annual “Southern Decadence” was set for Wednesday, August 31, 2005 through Monday, September 5, 2005, but due to massive flooding and the damage left by the hurricane, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has ordered everyone to evacuate the city.

The past three mayors of New Orleans, including Sidney Barthelomew, Marc H. Morial, and C. Ray Nagin, issued official proclamations welcoming visitors to “Southern Decadence”. Additionally, New Orleans City Council made other proclamations recognizing the annual homosexual celebration.

“Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city,” stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. “From ‘Girls Gone Wild’ to ‘Southern Decadence’, New Orleans was a city that opened its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin. May it never be the same,” he continued.

New Orleans is also known for its Mardi Gras parties where thousands of drunken men revel in the streets to exchange plastic jewelry for drunken women to expose their breasts. This annual event sparked the creation of the “Girls Gone Wild” video series.

“Let us pray for those ravaged by this disaster. However, we must not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long,” Marcavage said. “May this act of God cause us all to think about what we tolerate in our city limits, and bring us trembling before the throne of Almighty God,” Marcavage concluded.

“[God] sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust”. (Matthew 5:45)

CONTACT:
REPENT AMERICA
Michael Marcavage
P.O. Box 30000
Philadelphia, PA. 19103
1-800-3-REPENT
Email: repent@repentamerica.com
Website: www.repentamerica.com

Mosaics

1st September 2005, 06:09

exmarine

1st September 2005, 06:39

Although, I somewhat agree that God executes judgement on wicked cities/countries, I wouldn't be so bold as to claim that is what happened to New Orleans. If Katrina were what Marcavage claims, then why did it hit before Southern Decadence? Why didn't it hit after all the revelers had arrived? Also, New Orleans was not the only city hit. Some surrounding cities that have nothing to do with the wickedness of New Orleans were hurt just as badly. Collateral damage?

No one can know for sure, but if God did judge the city, His judgments are always righteous and true.

I also note the rampant looting, rape, murder, firing on helicopters, etc. I know there are people who are peaceful and are handling the crisis with equanimity, however, I also believe one's true character emerges in a crisis. I do not sympathize with the criminals one iota. I can see taking food and water to survive, but guns, clothes, TV's? What does this say about the character of many people in the city?

I have been to New Orleans. Bourbon Street is a depraved slime pit where all sorts of abomination are celebrated and encouraged. Sodom and Gomorrah redux. If that's culture, then I don't want any.

Mosaics

1st September 2005, 07:19

Areopagus

1st September 2005, 08:36

I completely agree that God's judgements are always righteous and true. And I also agree that New Orleans is a den of iniquity. I'm just saying that we cannot state for a certainty (as it seems Marcavage has) that Katrina is God's judgement on that city.

I can’t argue with that.
The God of wrath is also a God of mercy.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians6.htm

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Areopagus

1st September 2005, 08:38

No one can know for sure, but if God did judge the city, His judgments are always righteous and true.

What does this say about the character of many people in the city?

I have been to New Orleans. Bourbon Street is a depraved slime pit where all sorts of abomination are celebrated and encouraged. Sodom and Gomorrah redux. If that's culture, then I don't want any.

http://www.roca.org/OA/36/36h.htm

More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

What is more, the events of the Russian Revolution can only be understood now, at the end of the century, against the background of what has since occurred in the rest of the world. What emerges here is a process of universal significance. And if I were called upon to identify briefly the principal trait of the entire twentieth century, here too, I would be unable to find anything more precise and pithy than to repeat once again: Men have forgotten God.

Mosaics

1st September 2005, 09:09

Aeropagus, I have no doubt that the fall of Russia was due to their abandonment of God. I also fear that our beloved United States is well on it's way to destruction because our nation has abandoned (forgotten) or is in the process of abandoning God. However, your quote concerning the Russian Revolution was about a political thing, was it not? Not a natural (weather) disaster.

Be clear, I'm still not arguing that Katrina was not God's judgement on a wicked city...I'm just saying that we cannot state unequivocally that it was. :)

Areopagus

2nd September 2005, 04:57

your quote concerning the Russian Revolution was about a political thing, was it not? Not a natural (weather) disaster.

Be clear, I'm still not arguing that Katrina was not God's judgement on a wicked city...I'm just saying that we cannot state unequivocally that it was. :)

The Russian Revolution was an Unnatural disaster. And I’m not arguing that it was God’s judgment on a wicked city.
It would probably be easier to justify it as God’s wake-up call to a wicked city. All the wicked didn’t perish, and plans are to drain the city. Years from now some may argue that it was about time to do some renovation anyway, and that this was an excellent way to get the whole nation to help with that task.

Surely, there was a remnant in New Orleans? “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 1:7). Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. Romans 9:29

Does God judge nations? “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God” (Ps 9:17).

Is America too good to be judged by God? Prov 6:16 “These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Prov 6:17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood…” “ Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you." Ezek 35:6

The following excerpt from abortion survivor, Gianna Jessen, in her testimony before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, July 20, 2000 describes what it is like to be born in a country with no regard for the rule of law, and is morally indistinguishable from Nazi Germany:

"I would like to say thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I count it no small thing to speak the truth. I depend solely on the grace of God to do this. I am 23 years old. I was aborted and I did not die. My biological mother was 7 months pregnant when she went to Planned Parenthood in southern California and they advised her to have a late-term saline abortion.

A saline abortion is a solution of salt saline that is injected into the mother’s womb. The baby then gulps the solution, it burns the baby inside and out and then the mother is to deliver a dead baby within 24 hours.

This happened to me! I remained in the solution for approximately 18 hours and was delivered ALIVE on April 6, 1977 at 6:00 am in a California abortion clinic. There were young women in the room who had already been given their injections and were waiting to deliver dead babies. When they saw me they experienced the horror of murder. A nurse called an ambulance, while the abortionist was not yet on duty, and had me transferred to the hospital. I weighed a mere two pounds. I was saved by the sheer power of Jesus Christ.

Ladies and gentleman I should be blind, burned.....I should be dead! And yet, I live! Due to a lack of oxygen supply during the abortion I live with cerebral palsy. [...] Adolph Hitler once said: ""The receptive ability of the great masses is only very limited, their understanding is small; on the other hand their forgetfulness is great. This being so, all effective propaganda should be limited to a very few points which in turn, should be used as slogans until the very last man is able to imagine what is meant by such words."" Today's slogans are: ""a woman's right to choose"" and "freedom of choice,"" etcetera.

There was once a man speaking from hell, recorded in Luke 16, who said, ""I am tormented in this flame."" Hell is real and so is Satan, and the same hatred that crucified Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, still resides in the hearts of sinful people today. Why do you think this whole room trembles when I mention Jesus Christ? It is because He is real, and He is able to give the grace for repentance that we need as Americans. We are proud and boastful and we kill without shame."

http://web.archive.org/web/20010913185312/http://www.cbsnews.com/earlyshow/healthwatch/healthnews/20010913terror_spiritual.shtml

Jane Clayson: I've heard people say, those who are religious, those who are not, if God is good, how could God let this happen? To that, you say?

Anne Graham Lotz: I say God is also angry when he sees something like this. I would say also for several years now Americans in a sense have shaken their fist at God and said, God, we want you out of our schools, our government, our business, we want you out of our marketplace. And God, who is a gentleman, has just quietly backed out of our national and political life, our public life. Removing his hand of blessing and protection. We need to turn to God first of all and say, God, we're sorry we have treated you this way and we invite you now to come into our national life. We put our trust in you. We have our trust in God on our coins, we need to practice it.

Engraved on the wall of the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C. are these words of our third U.S. president: “God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. “ On August 22, 1787, George Mason (Father of the Bill of Rights) made this prophetic statement about the divisive issue of slavery during the debates of the Constitutional Convention: “"Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgment of Heaven upon a country. As nations cannot be rewarded or punished in the next world, they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes and effects, Providence punishes national sins, by national calamities."

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/decline.html

The Cycle of Nations
In his book The End of Christendom, Malcolm Muggeridge makes this powerful observation. He says:

I conclude that civilizations, like every other human creation, wax and wane. By the nature of the case there can never be a lasting civilization anymore than there can be a lasting spring or lasting happiness in an individual life or a lasting stability in a society. It's in the nature of man and of all that he constructs to perish, and it must ever be so. The world is full of the debris of past civilizations and others are known to have existed which have not left any debris behind them but have just disappeared.

He goes on to say that

...whatever their ideology may be, from the Garden of Eden onwards such dreams of lasting felicity have cropped up and no doubt always will. But the realization is impossible for the simple reason that a fallen creature like man though capable of conceiving perfection and aspiring after it, is in himself and in his works forever imperfect. Thus he is fated to exist in the no man's land between the perfection he can conceive and the imperfection that characterizes his own nature and everything he does.

Nations rise and nations fall. Every nation has followed this progression from bondage to bondage. The nations of this century will be no different. But let us not accept the Marxist notion that these are fixed and intractable laws of history. Christians can point to unusual times when revival has redirected the inexorable decline of a civilization. In the Old Testament, Jonah saw revival postpone God's judgment of Nineveh. In the sixteenth century, Martin Luther and John Calvin saw a Protestant Reformation transform Europe. And even in the history of the United States the First and Second Great Awakenings changed individuals and our society.

But apart from God's intervention, nations will decline and eventually pass off the scene. Much of the Old Testament records the history of the nation of Israel. It passed through these same stages and so will every country in the world.

God's judgment rightly falls upon those who practice idolatry and immorality. Certainly an eternal judgment awaits those who are guilty, but a social judgment occurs when God gives a nation over to its sinful practices.

Notice that this progression is not unique to the Hellenistic world the Apostle Paul was living in. The progression from idolatry to sexual perversion to anarchy to judgment is found throughout history.

In the times of Noah and Lot, there was the idolatry of greed, there was sexual perversion and promiscuity, there was anarchy and violence, and finally there was judgment. Throughout the history of the nation of Israel there was idolatry, sexual perversion, anarchy (in which each person did what was right in his own eyes), and finally judgment.

This progression happened throughout the Bible and to Greece, to Persia, to Babylon, and to Rome. And if it happened to these nations, then it can happen today. Unless we return to God's principles, decline and destruction are inevitable.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. II Chronicles 7:14

exmarine

2nd September 2005, 05:22

Wow. That was an excellent compilation of writings and testimony. Very powerful and moving.

Even as we see the utter devastation of Hurricane Katrina, I noted that California Senate today legalized full-blown homosexual marriage. America is blind to the judgment that will inevitably come...

I saw a documentary film recently that chronicles a revival in our day --- in Uganda. They went from the horrors of Idi Amin and violent oppression to Christian leaders and a declining AIDS due to the fervent intercessory prayers of a few faithful Christians. God goes where where people seek Him.

While Europe is pretty much a cold and dead post-Christian society, and America is slowly dying, Christianity is vibrant in Asia and Africa. I have no way of verifying it, but I have read that there are now more Christians in Africa than Europe, and more in China than in the United States.

Areopagus

2nd September 2005, 05:46

While Europe is pretty much a cold and dead post-Christian society, and America is slowly dying, Christianity is vibrant in Asia and Africa. I have no way of verifying it, but I have read that there are now more Christians in Africa than Europe, and more in China than in the United States.

16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades23 will not overpower it. http://www.bible.org/netbible/mat16.htm

You posted an article from this site which also contains a very succinct statement of the fundamentals of the faith, and which could be considered the ‘rock’ mentioned above.
http://www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/Statement+of+Faith.htm

WE BELIEVE that the Christian Church, both universal and local, was set up by the Lord Jesus Christ to be His Body on earth; God has given to the Church the glorious privilege of preaching the gospel in all the world; all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation are our brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of denominational distinctions.

http://www.rca.org/mission/mutual/index.html

In 1960 about 70 percent of all evangelical Christians lived in "the West" (Europe and North America) and 30 percent lived in the two-thirds world. By 2002, those percentages had essentially flipped, with only 30 percent of all evangelical Christians living in the West and about 70 percent living in the two-thirds world. Christianity in Europe has withered almost to the point of extinction, while in North America we struggle to hold our own. In the meantime, the churches of Latin America, Africa, and Asia are exploding with energy, vitality, and growth. In 1900, Africa was home to 10 million Christians, about 9 percent of its population at the time. Today, Africa is home to 360 million Christians, over 45 percent of its total population. Similarly, Asia is home to 313 million Christians and Latin America to 480 million. Meanwhile, North America weighs in with 260 million.

Mosaics

2nd September 2005, 09:11

I'm aghast at what I just heard the NO mayor say on TV.

He was all in a tizzy, very angry that the federal gov't hadn't taken care of his city fast enough. They had to bleep out his profanity. In the midst of his tirade he said (not verbatim, 'cause my memory isn't that good), "If God is looking down on this mess and if the President and his administration aren't doing everything humanly possible to help us, then they better watch out because God will punish them."

First of all, I wonder what the major himself did to prepare for the disaster...everything humanly possible? Secondly, New Orleans, the party place, consistently supports, condones, and provides a venue for evil, vile, wicked behavior. The major himself approves of such godless behavior and he has the NERVE to threaten that God will punish people for not helping fast enough?

Unbelievable.

BrandonH

2nd September 2005, 10:18

I saw this mentioned on World Net Daily and I sent a letter to them and I will post a similar response here: I take offense to anyone saying this storm was from God as a result of the planned Southern Decadence festival. I am from St. Bernard Parish which is right outside of New Orleans. St. Bernard has suffered as bad if not worse damage than New Orleans. I am a Christian and many many people, many of whom are Christian, were affected by this, who have nothing to do with Southern Decadence.

I was considering posting about what has happened here but thought it would be off topic. We have hundreds of people trapped on roof tops. We have hundreds, may be thousands of people dead. Except for what I have taken with me, I have probably lost everything. And unlike New Orleans, St. Bernard has gotten a minimal amount of news coverage, so few no how bad our situation is.

I share in Mayor Ray Nagin's Frustration. Regardless of whether you think FEMA is Constitutional or not, be aware that officials are not letting people in to help out. People need food and water. No one could go back there and help if they wanted to unless they are part of some approved government organization, be it FEMA or Red Cross. If this were a foreign country, governement aid would have been here already. In fact, the Jefferson Parish President said that for that same reason Jefferson Parish is no longer part of the United States or Louisiana.

God has his reasons for letting things happen, whether it be Hurricanes, Earthquakes, or Tsunamis. And while the government has greatly mismanaged this situation, the True Act of God is how everyone will recover and the compassion shown by others. Red Cross has had a lot of donations coming in to help us, mostly from individuals. And while I don't know what the future holds in store for my family and myself, I know that through the God's Will, we will get through this crisis. And to blame this horrific event as God taking vengeange for Southern Decedance is as un-Christian as Southern Decadence itself.

TheSeventhStooge

2nd September 2005, 10:51

I have the honor of preaching at my church on September 11th (I am a part-time circut preacher, as well as full-time meat cutter :p ), and in light of Katrina, the tsunami that happened in December, and the anniversary of the WTC being hit, I have come up with the most likely topic for my message, and the scripture I will use is Luke 13:1-9: (This is from the NIV)

"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, 'Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.'

"Then he told this parable: 'A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, "for three years now I 've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?" "Sir," the man replied, "leave it alone for one more year, nd I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down." ' "

Basically, I believe that Jesus was saying the following:
1) The people of New Orleans are, in God's eyes, no more or less wicked than anyone else living in this country. Or for that matter, the people of the USA are no more or less wicked in God's eyes than anyone else on this planet. We should not automatically assume that anyone who goes through a disaster is being singly punished by God for this.
2) However, do not assume that God cannot use disasters like this to execute His judgment. I think that when a disaster hits, there are some possibilities: One, that it is a judgment from God for us abandoning His Law and His ways. Two, it could be a wake-up call for us to return to God. Three, it could be a test to see what truly lies in our hearts (see Job). And four, it could simply be time and chance (see Ecclesiastes 9:11); bad things happen to good people because we live in a fallen world where things do not always go the way we think it should or will go. It could be for any of these reasons, it could be a combination, and it could be differ from individual to individual.
3) When we see things like this happen (Katrina, Sept. 11th, etc.), we need to take those as warnings that unless WE REPENT, WE WILL PERISH. *THAT* is the focus of Jesus' statement in the first five verses. Because we don't know when our time under the sun is up, we need to make sure our lives are right with God through the blood of Jesus.
4) We need to remember that as Christians, we need to bear fruit in His service. We need to remember the importance of holiness, right living, right spending of what we have been given, etc.

That is the basis for my message, and I think it is the right thing to say. I would really,really welcome comments and additions, if you would. Negative criticisms are also welcome, but please don't tell me to sugar-coat it or tone it down. The fact is God is a holy and just God who hates sin and must bring all things to judgment. He isn't some "lovey-dovey" kindly old man in heaven who is at our beck and call; He is the Creator and King of the universe and therefore must be treated and acknowledged as such.

There are a lot of people perishing out there, and even after they see this they will still shrug their shoulders, scrape the sores off their bodies, and say, "Where's my prostitute?" Until we recognize our sin, turn to Christ for fogiveness, and repent, I truly believe that what we have seen is just the beginning of the fist of wrath coming down. As Christians, we need to get ready!

TheSeventhStooge...

wondering

2nd September 2005, 11:28

Ok, im just wondering about how this all works. It seems to me that its "repent or else" shouldnt it more be you should repent because its good.....i dont know, as i said im just wondering but this day and age fear seems to run everyone's lives including the christians. I thought that the reason god would want everyone to goto heaven is because its good, not sell it on the line "do it or else" i have become a little tired with threats. Sounds to me more like a bully at school. Not some loving god.

Oh yeah and i know its already been argued (it will probably be used to explain what is happening) but why on earth is it in anyway good to have an angry god, doesnt that mean that at any time everything could just go pear shaped....even for people who have done as much as they can to do everything right? seems like a flat out dumb deal believing if you ask me.

And on another note, i have noticed alot, that people seem to deem themselves fit to "judge" the sins of others, can someone clear up why this is possible?

Oh and to end it, I wonder, why do people feel the need to quickly explain the reasons behind disasters. Can't people bite their tongue and maybe i dont know.....help out, instead of blaming this that the other. I am from Canberra in Australia, and when we had bushfires which destroyed quite alot of our homes (in comparison to any other disaster we have had) i was first trying to help out with friends/family, and anyone who needed it and then secondly wondering, well why did it happen.......anyways if anyone has some time and would like to answer any of these questions....even if they don't make sense :P, i would appreciate it.

Cheers,
Always wondering....

Mosaics

2nd September 2005, 11:44

Wondering, yes, repenting because it is the right thing to do is first and foremost. However, God has clearly stated that there are consequences for being unrepentant. It is a fact that cannot be ignored no matter how unpleasant some may think it is.

Concerning the "judging" and "blaming" of others, you might ask some of the liberals the same thing, starting with the mayor of New Orleans who has blamed and judged the President, even going as far as saying God will punish him. I post on another board that is primarily liberal and all they do day and night is blame the President for not knowing the levee might break, not getting the military involved soon enough, not running right over to New Orleans as soon as the hurricane happened, having the gall to take a vacation, not making the right face, hugging people, not hugging people, not showing compassion, showing fake compassion, etc., etc.

TheSeventhStooge

3rd September 2005, 12:45

These are good questions! Keep them coming, okay? Let me try to answer some of them to the best of my knowledge realizing, and I hope I will make sense, too:

First of all, we need to have a proper view of who and what God is. I realize that as a human being I don't have even an inkling of who God truly is, because I am finite and He is infinite; it would be like a chair trying to describe to a table about the character of the carpenter that made it. But through study of the Bible, combined with the lights that He has left in this world to prove who He is and that He exists (such as creation, and the human conscious), we can get a glimpse of His character and His ways. For one thing, God is holy. He is set apart from creation, and he is perfect in every way. This is an aspect of God that, frankly, the world doesn't want to hear, doesn't want to consider, and want to understand. We don't want to hear that God hates sin. We don't want to hear that God is the King of the universe and that we should submit ourselves to Him. Instead, we want all the good things from God without having to submit ourselves to Him and obey Him. We want to believe in a God who loves everyone and will never do anything to harm anyone. In other words, we want to believe in a God who does not take His personal character or His Law seriously. We want a God who isn't holy, or righteous, or will make all things right. We want a God who will just let us eat all the chocolate we want, even if that means we grow up fat with zits all over our face.

Why does God command everyone to repent? (Acts 17:30) Well, what does it mean to repent? It means to do a turn around in your life and head towards God, rather than away from him (as is the tendency of all of us). Because God is perfect, anything that falls short of that perfection is defined as "sin." Sin goes against God's design for life; for example, murder is forbidden and considered a sin because by committing murder, we are harming someone who is specially made in the image of God. Adultery and fornication (any sexual acts outside of marrige) are wrong and sin in God's eyes because God specifically designed sex to be done only between a man and woman who have made a vow to be together for a lifetime.

If God is life and the originator of life, and if sin is against God, then what must the end result of sin be? Death. Sin must result in death because sin is against everything that God is. When a man lies, he does something that is contrary to God's character and holiness (God is a God of truth, and never lies) and therefore stands under the death penalty when the day of judgment comes. Same with murder, blaspheming the name of God, adultery, drunkenness, etc.

I would like to hear your definition of what a loving God is (you mentioned it in the context of the threats to "repent or else" in the first paragraph of your post). Is your definition of a loving God that of a God who does not punish sin? Does he consider some sins more serious than others? If so, which ones are irrelevant in His eyes? Adultery? Murder? Theft? Kidnapping? Which sins will God say is okay and which sins will God say is not okay? Which sins will God say, "Oh, that one didn't matter. You can still come into my kingdom"? And if that is the case, then why should we even care about God, when He isn't consistent with His own character? If it is bad for God to be angry (as you seem to imply in the second paragraph of your post), then why should I be angry when injustice is done on this earth? If God doesn't care and doesn't get angry, why should I? But if God doesn't care, why should I care about God?

Please note: I am not trying to be antagonistic. If I am, I sincerely apologize. And I am trying to make sure I represent your comments the best I can, and I am sure I have made a mistake here and there. Feel free to correct me, okay? ;) You asked someone to comment on your questions, and I am trying to do so, and I hope that I am not being insulting.

Let me go on. You said in the first paragraph of your post, "I have become a little tired with threats." I will be totally honest with you: First, I am tired of Christians and non-Christians downplaying the wrath and holiness of God; we have made Him impotent or uncaring about justice! Second, I truly believe that, if you look at the Christian church as a whole, I think your view of Christians running around in fear and all the threats may not hold water because the threats are few and far between!!! We don't hear sermons like Johnathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." We don't hear messages that speak of the destructive nature of sin and why sin is so terrible, both in God's eyes and the eyes of human beings. We don't want to offend people with the truth. We would rather have 100 people at our church than see 90 of them leave because they heard a sermon about their sin and the need to have faith in Jesus Christ. I know I am being redundant here, so please bear with me. When I read about the lives of the prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Elijah, etc., and when I read about the Lord Jesus, I see men who preached the truth and certainty of God's judgment (along with promises of future restoration and mercy), and the people who heard them responded with threats, insults, and even ulitmately death. The prophets spoke out against the evils of the day, even during and after God's judgment had been executed.

I think your thoughts on your last paragraph have a lot of merit, but I think there is a question that needs to be asked. I have noticed that when it comes to Christianity, there are two lines of thinking. On the left side of the political spectrum, we have ministers who preach social justice and helping the less fortunate. On the right, we have preachers speaking out against sin and the need to turn to God. What I want to know is, why aren't ALL preachers speaking about BOTH of these issues? Why is one side always considered their view to be the only legitimate issue? Why don't we hear James Dobson talk about social injustices like racism or sexism, or why don't we hear Jesse Jackson speak out against out-of-wedlock pregnancies? I don't know, and I wish I had an answer to that. God consideres BOTH to be extremely important ("He has shown you, o man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8, NIV). To walk humbly with God means to act justly (remember God's Law and His character and attitude towards injustice and sin) and to love mercy (to help those who are downtrodden). I am still working on the latter, and while it may seem I am too much on the former, it should be pointed out (as I will later in this post) that at one time I didn't care about God's Law or His hatred of sin.

Now, I am just as guilty as anyone else. For years I didn't really care about God's Law or what He required of me, even during the time when I called myself a follower of Christ. I am just beginning to realize how far off I have been and have been trying to get back to living a life like Jesus did. You make a good point in saying that people make themselves fit to judge others' sins (third paragraph). You are dead on correct. I cannot judge you. I cannot condemn you as a sinner, because I am a sinner too; I have violated God's holy Law and deserve the death penalty. However, there is One who can judge, and there is One who will judge the world in righteousness. It is my responsibility to show people that, like me, they too stand under God's condemnation, and the only way we can escape the future punishment is to cling to the cross. Run to the Savior, Jesus Christ, who is the one man in all history who was perfect in every way and didn't deserve to die, and yet did. He took my punishment for every sin I have committed and will commit in my entire lifetime, and he is my escape and my only hope.

Was the hurricane a judgment of God? Possibly- at the very least, it could have been a judgment on individual people who thumbed their noses at God when they had every chance to repent and turn to him. It could have been a random occurrence; as Solomon once said, "As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds taken by a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly on them." And it could have been done as a warning to all of us. If you want to call that cruel and say that it isn't the character of a loving God, it's your call. I have been alive for 33 years (will be 34 this upcoming Sunday; man I feel old!), and He has kept me alive in His grace and mercy for that long. I don't deserve life, or anything I have. It is all His.

I hope I was clear enough in my post. Sorry about being so long! Anyway, I can't stay up too much longer, so I might see if you have responded (or anyone else). Take care of yourself, okay?

Lonnie (TheSeventhStooge...)

Mosaics

3rd September 2005, 10:31

That was an excellent response, Seventhstooge.

exmarine

3rd September 2005, 03:19

exmarine

3rd September 2005, 03:28

...You make a good point in saying that people make themselves fit to judge others' sins (third paragraph). You are dead on correct. I cannot judge you. I cannot condemn you as a sinner, because I am a sinner too; I have violated God's holy Law and deserve the death penalty. However, there is One who can judge, and there is One who will judge the world in righteousness. It is my responsibility to show people that, like me, they too stand under God's condemnation, and the only way we can escape the future punishment is to cling to the cross. Run to the Savior, Jesus Christ, who is the one man in all history who was perfect in every way and didn't deserve to die, and yet did. He took my punishment for every sin I have committed and will commit in my entire lifetime, and he is my escape and my only hope.

Lonnie (TheSeventhStooge...)

Clearly, Christians must judge behavior, not the sin itself. There is a big difference between the two. We are called to discipline members of the body for their sinful behavior (e.g. even "expel the immoral brother"), but, we cannot possibly do that if we do not JUDGE that behavior sinful.

I respectfully submit that we are not to judge self-righteously (a sin I have been guilty of and regret), but no one can make a biblical case that we are not to judge behavior. We most certainly are because the bible says so.

There is a serious lack of church discipline in America today.

TheSeventhStooge

4th September 2005, 02:57

Clearly, Christians must judge behavior, not the sin itself. There is a big difference between the two. We are called to discipline members of the body for their sinful behavior (e.g. even "expel the immoral brother"), but, we cannot possibly do that if we do not JUDGE that behavior sinful.

I respectfully submit that we are not to judge self-righteously (a sin I have been guilty of and regret), but no one can make a biblical case that we are not to judge behavior. We most certainly are because the bible says so.

There is a serious lack of church discipline in America today.

Very true, and I have been guilty of said sin, too. I think that is the whole point of what Jesus was saying in Matthew 7:1-6, 15-20. But so many people quote Matthew 7:1 and say we should never, ever judge people. What you have said, exmarine, is absolutely correct. We need to make sure there are no logs in our eyes, but that doesn't mean we cannot help our brother get the speck out of his.

TheSeventhStooge...