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Areopagus
15th August 2005, 01:10
Why Can't Christians Agree With The Apostle Paul, And Jefferson On The Fundamental Purposes Of Government?

Christians, of all people, should know the difference between good and evil. They should know that the fundamental purpose of government, as described in Romans 13, is expounded upon in the Declaration of Independence, and Preamble of the U.S. Constitution. They should know the difference between politicians who use religious (2 Tim 3:1-5), and pro-life rhetoric to get elected, and those who really are pro-life, and pro-Constitution. It should go without saying, that voting should be based on the commands of the Creator who granted those inalienable rights, and revealed those self-evident truths.



ROMANS 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Romans 2:14 & 15 refers to those who didn't have the law of Moses in written form, but did have some vestige of the moral law in their hearts. The law written on their hearts when combined with reason was sufficient to guide their actions, and their conscience judged their compliance. Those without the written revelation and those rejecting the written revelation know the vast difference between good and evil. One of the major objections atheists have against the existence of a good God is the presence of pervasive evil. How do they know what evil is without knowing what good is? Devoutly secular nations based upon the atheology of communism have laws derived from second half of the Jewish, and Christian Decalogue governing human relations. Covetousness prohibited by the Tenth Commandment can be punishable under criminal conspiracy laws, if the covetousness leads to actions that would constitute a crime when committed.



ROMANS 12:9
"….Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil….19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink…. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."

Christians have the "work of the law written in their hearts," and accept the written record of Moses. Christians should know the difference between good and evil. God is far more capable than any human of repaying evil, and has many means of doing so. He takes the burden of personal vengeance from Christians, and in some cases places that burden on government, as the 13th chapter of Romans reveals. John Locke in his Second Treatise Of Government recognized that a community of people were far better able to protect their "life, liberty and property" by consenting to government formed for those purposes rather than living in a state of anarchy.



ROMANS 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves ****ation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."


Romans 13:1 includes the governing officials themselves when it states "every soul." Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament [1] contains some notes that help clarify this verse. "Every soul….As in…. (every man). To the higher powers…. Abstract for concrete. See Mark 2:10…. Huperecw is an old verb to have or hold over, to be above or supreme, as in 1 Peter 2:13."



"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"


The "rulers" are "ordained" "ministers of God" to be a "terror to evil" by "executing wrath upon those that do evil." In verses 3, and 4 of Romans 13 the terms ‘good,’ and ‘evil’ are used three times. Verse 9 describes "evil" by repeating the second half of the Decalogue found in Exodus 20:13-17, and Deuteronomy 5:17-21. The latter part of verse 9, and verse 10 describes "good." Is murder good, or evil? Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." If murder is evil, then mass murder isn’t good. Proverbs 6:16-17 "These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him...hands that shed innocent blood…." Why do Christians vote for politicians who claim that America isn’t ready to discard the law-breaking opinion of Roe[2], when thirty states are ready to?[3] Are these pro-life states not part of America? Why do Christians praise, and vote for politicians who claim that Roe v Wade is "settled law;" when there is nothing lawful, or Biblical about that unconstitutional opinion?[4] The words of Amos need to be repeatedly repeated in our Christianized, but lawless culture: Amos 5:14,15 "Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD,the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate…."



Some federal judges, and politicians act as though they are above the law once they take office; but Paul is not arguing for the divine right kings, or the divine right of a federal judicial oligarchy. The "higher power" in the United States is the Constitution. Article 6, Paragraph 2 states,"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof…shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby…." The majority opinion of a federal court isn’t listed here, or anywhere else in the Constitution, as being equivalent with, or superior to the written Constitution. Congress is the law making branch, not the federal courts! In paragraph 3 we find, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…." Additionally, the President is held to an even higher standard in Article 2, Section 1: "…he shall take the following oath or affirmation:-- ""…I…will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."" Section 3 states that the President "shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed." Nowhere does the Constitution state that he shall take care that "federal court orders" be faithfully executed.



No one is bound to support the unconstitutional majority opinions emanating from federal courts! Their decisions are confined to the parties involved according to the specifics of the particular case. Law by definition is a rule binding on people generally, not just upon individuals who happen to be parties to a case. Congress and state legislatures are the law making branches, not the federal courts. Federal courts have no authority to break laws made "in Pursuance" of the Constitution.



Not only did God ordain the written Constitution, but so did the people as stated in the Preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to…establish justice…secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Amendment V expounds upon our posterity. "No person shall be...deprived of life...without due process of law...." The Foundation for the National Archives[5] states that, "The Virginia Declaration of Rights strongly influenced Thomas Jefferson in writing the first part of the Declaration of Independence. It later provided the foundation for the Bill of Rights." The Virginia Declaration of Rights[6] states, " That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life…."





REMAINDER OF ARTICLE AVAILABLE @http://lawsforlife.blogspot.com/

Jaime
15th August 2005, 01:54
In your statement "God ordain the written Constitution" are you referring to the uS Constitution in specific? If yes, where did you get that idea?

Areopagus
15th August 2005, 07:47
In your statement "God ordain the written Constitution" are you referring to the uS Constitution in specific? If yes, where did you get that idea?

http://lawsforlife.blogspot.com/

Adam Clarke's Commentary on Romans 13:1[7] describes the relationship between the rulers, the ruled, and the rule of law:



"In all nations of the earth there is what may be called a constitution-a plan by which a particular country or state is governed…. The civil governor, whether he be elective or hereditary, agrees to govern according to that constitution. Thus we may consider that there is a compact and consent between the governor and the governed, and in such a case, the potentate may be considered as coming to the supreme authority in the direct way of God's providence; and as civil government is of God, who is the fountain of law, order, and regularity, the civil governor, who administers the laws of a state according to its constitution, is the minister of God.


Nothing can justify the opposition of the subjects to the ruler but overt attempts on his part to change the constitution, or to rule contrary to law.


When the ruler acts thus he dissolves the compact between him and his people; his authority is no longer binding, because illegal; and it is illegal because he is acting contrary to the laws of that constitution, according to which, on being raised to the supreme power, he promised to govern. This conduct justifies opposition to his government…."

"Adam Clarke's Commentary" on Romans 13:1, GodRules.net. http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerom13.htm

Verse 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.] This is a very strong saying, and most solemnly introduced; and we must consider the apostle as speaking, not from his own private judgment, or teaching a doctrine of present expediency, but declaring the mind of God on a subject of the utmost importance to the peace of the world; a doctrine which does not exclusively belong to any class of people, order of the community, or official situations, but to every soul; and, on the principles which the apostle lays down, to every soul in all possible varieties of situation, and on all occasions. And what is this solemn doctrine? It is this: Let every soul be subject to the higher powers. Let every man be obedient to the civil government under which the providence of God has cast his lot.

For there is no power but of God] As God is the origin of power, and the supreme Governor of the universe, he delegates authority to whomsoever he will; and though in many cases the governor himself may not be of God, yet civil government is of him; for without this there could be no society, no security, no private property; all would be confusion and anarchy, and the habitable world would soon be depopulated. In ancient times, God, in an especial manner, on many occasions appointed the individual who was to govern; and he accordingly governed by a Divine right, as in the case of Moses, Joshua, the Hebrew judges, and several of the Israelitish kings. In after times, and to the present day, he does that by a general superintending providence which he did before by especial designation. In all nations of the earth there is what may be called a constitution-a plan by which a particular country or state is governed; and this constitution is less or more calculated to promote the interests of the community. The civil governor, whether he be elective or hereditary, agrees to govern according to that constitution. Thus we may consider that there is a compact and consent between the governor and the governed, and in such a case, the potentate may be considered as coming to the supreme authority in the direct way of God's providence; and as civil government is of God, who is the fountain of law, order, and regularity, the civil governor, who administers the laws of a state according to its constitution, is the minister of God.

Jaime
17th August 2005, 03:37
I did not see what I would consider the answer to the "written constitutin" question but I'll chew on this for a while.

I come from the point of view that the original government structure, after the fall before Saul, is patriarchy. God's people should strive for this type of government.

In God I trust, all others, write it (a Constitution) down.


http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=8&version=31

1 Samuel 8

Israel Asks for a King

1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have."

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. [B]7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. [B]9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle [b] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."
Then Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Everyone go back to his town."

Footnotes:

1 Samuel 8:5 Traditionally judge ; also in verses 6 and 20
1 Samuel 8:16 Septuagint; Hebrew young men