To whom does Jesus Christ bows?

[Jaime]

I just returned from the Texas Home School Conference.

At the begining of the last item in Friday's program the Christian flag (white flag, blue canton containing a red cross), the flag of the State of Texas and the flag of these US were presented. At the "present colors" order the Christian and Texas flags were lowered, the US flag maintained its erect position above the others, and the Pledge to the uS was recited.

Now, if the Christian flag represents our Christ, does this means that, we are saying that, Christ bows to Caesar?

Is this not blasphemy?

Am I the only Christian that finds this disturbing?

And no, I do not recite the pledge.

[Triton]

I just returned from the Texas Home School Conference.

At the begining of the last item in Friday's program the Christian flag (white flag, blue canton containing a red cross), the flag of the State of Texas and the flag of these US were presented. At the "present colors" order the Christian and Texas flags were lowered, the US flag maintained its erect position above the others, and the Pledge to the uS was recited.

Now, if the Christian flag represents our Christ, does this means that, we are saying that, Christ bows to Caesar?

Is this not blasphemy?

Am I the only Christian that finds this disturbing?

And no, I do not recite the pledge.

Someone probably didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. I bet it was just a mistake. It was probably some kids presenting, correct?

I don't have a problem with the Pledge, but I think they could have left the Christian flag out of that ceremony altogether. To have it standing over to the side, unbending, the whole time would have said a lot.

[Jaime]

It was the Texas Home School Coalition (http://www.thsc.org) Annual Conference. It is an excellent conference. The group that presented the flag ceremony was the Alert Cadets (http://www.alertcadet.org).

I do not think that it is a mistake on their part.

Have y'all seen all those churches that fly the Christian and uS flags? Which flag is in the position of "superior prominence?"

When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium on or off a podium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker (to the right of the audience).
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

For sometime I have been pondering whether the uS is the revived Roman Empire. I see too many parallels.

My problem with the pledge is that it makes the false claim that the Republic is "indivisible." I refute that idea.

The agent is not above the principal. The States are above the Federal government and have the authority to secede.

[NealStanley]

I love your signature! Kids are great for giving an entertaining view of the world. :)

[Triton]

I love your signature! Kids are great for giving an entertaining view of the world. :)

She really said that, too. I nearly fell off the seat laughing.

[Dale]

Am I the only Christian that finds this disturbing?

No you are not. I also find very disturbing the fact that 90%, or so, of the churches in America are incorporated. What in the world do they think they are doing? Churches who get their sanction from God are lowering themselves to contracting with the state for privileges of existence.

[GovernmentIsDangerous]

The pledge was also written by a socialist, it used to say "my flag", and didn't have "under God" in it. You are also pledging allegience to a flag. Since learning these things I have refused to say the pledge.

[jtw]

Well I've never thought much about it. I guess it sounds pretty ridiculous.

Can someone post the pledge in it's entirety??

[Jaime]

Francis Bellamy wrote the original "Pledge." He was a socialist who sought to firmly establish the "indivisible" Union won at Gettysburg.

Did y'all know that the original salute to the uS flag was the Roman raised arm? The way to salute the flag changed sometime in the late 1930s because of the Nazis in Germany.

I do not know who rexcurry.net is but it contains some old pcis:
http://www.rexcurry.net/pledge2.html

By the way, several years ago, I researched the origins of Loyalty Oaths here in the uS. I was not able to find such animal (after the Revolution of 1776) until Lincoln's War.

The original Pledege is as follows:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and (to*) the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


The current version is:

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[wmgreene]

Hi Dale!

In response to your statement that you "also find very disturbing the fact that 90%, or so, of the churches in America are incorporated. ... Churches who get their sanction from God are lowering themselves to contracting with the state for privileges of existence." I suggest you review the system of the Number of Man (i.e., 666).

As I'm sure your aware, Yeshu’s mission involved the process of overcoming that ancient system of novation which is set forth in the Book of Genesis (41:1-4; 41:17-21) as Pharaoh’s dream of the beasts of the field which ate up everything and left the people without their money (Genesis 47:13-15), without the rights to their lands, and in a state of slavery (Genesis 47:18-22). Under that ancient system of novation (the Biblical Beast) the church which has contracted with the state for privileges of existenceis is in fact a creature of the state (Genesis 47:23-27) as you have suggested.

Blessings,
Bill

[toddpedlar]

Am I the only Christian that finds this disturbing?

And no, I do not recite the pledge.

Honestly, I'm more disturbed by the fact that they had a stupid Christian flag there at all. What's the point of it, other than to capitulate to culture, and 'have our own flag' in the same way that we "christianize" other junk?

Churches that fly any flags in the sanctuary, Christian or American or whatever ought to re-examine their priorities, and compare them with Scriptural principle.

Todd

ps - I do share your disagreement with their decision to bow the "christian" flag, as it were, to the US flag, but I think any insult to Christ lies more in the existence of the flag at all.

[antifederalist]

Is this not blasphemy?

Am I the only Christian that finds this disturbing?

And no, I do not recite the pledge.
I wouldn't call it blasphemy, especially since there isn't any biblical mandate regarding a "Christian" flag. It is disturbing, however. The inescapeable implication is that the federal government reigns supreme--which is really quite surprising at a home school conference. I just don't see why it was necessary to include the flags in their program in the first place.

[Dale]

Greetings Bill,

Thanks for your input. I do agree that churches that contract with the state are indeed "creatures" of the state.

That leads me to this question: Are they still a church? If they start out a church under the sole authority of her Head (Jesus Christ), then go to the state with the request to be recognized as a corporation under the authority of the state. Did she just forfeit her claim to be a church? Can she be both? What kind of message are churches sending when they themselves cannot even remain loyal to their Lord?

Finally, let me add a link to a web site that I find of great interest: http://hushmoney.org/ The atricles are very good, don't miss them.

[truthman]

Several notes here:

I'm not surprised that Bill Gothard's ALERT Cadets were involved in paying homage to the American Flag over a Christian Flag. Bill's always taught a high appreciation of the government.

However, I also agree that we really don't need a Christian flag either. I explicity refrain from Christian t-shirts and crosses though too. I feel that people will know that I'm a Christian through my verbal witness first.

Now, on to the 'churches holding contracts with the state' business.

I am a Pastor of a small church here in Yuma, CO, and I explicitly started this church without the goal of becoming non-profit like all the other churches. If you become non-profit, then the feds will try to tell you what you can and cannot say behind the pulpit. Gimme a break! I will say what God's word says regardless of the subject matter (i.e. political candidates, abortion, homosexuality, etc.) and no government will stop me.

truthman

[Jaime]

On the issue of church incorporation, or rather not, I recommend the following web site:

Heal Our Land Ministries
http://hushmoney.org/

[truthman]

Tha's a wonderful site, Jaime. I had no idea there were others who had the same vision as myself of having a church that was free of government influence.

I'm going to check out their site much more, thanks.

truthman

[SWhiteman]

I pass a church on the way to work that has a flag pole with an American Flag and a Christian Flag in that order. I also pass a Greek diner that has an American Flag, a Greek Flag, then a Maryland Flag.

I know that according to the U.S. Code both organisations are following "the law." What it is saying is that the Nation Greece is superiour to Maryland. But Maryland is equal to Greece, and the U.S. is the creature of Maryland and the other united States, so why not put the State Flag first?

Since all civil governments are but the mere vicars of Christ, His flag (if He is to have one, which I contest) is top, as you all know and have expressed.

I also know that the Crown Rights of my King supercede Uncle Sam's. If Uncle Sam intends to contest the throne, he will suffer a Psalm 2 problem.

Now the crux: It seems to me that if the Church is unwilling to contest for the Crown Rights of its King, the King will remove the authority He once gave from the Church. If a church ceases to be the creature of God and is the incorporated creature of the State, it will be removed to make room for the true Church.

[Dale]

...It seems to me that if the Church is unwilling to contest for the Crown Rights of its King, the King will remove the authority He once gave from the Church. If a church ceases to be the creature of God and is the incorporated creature of the State, it will be removed to make room for the true Church.

And all the while calling the world to "follow us as we follow the Lord" when by example they are following their lord--the state.

I was eager to hear your input Scott, thanks.

[Jaime]

1) A State flag must fly above the Federal flag.
2) The Federal flag flies alone in Federal installations and abroad.
3) State government and subdivisions must only fly the State flag and the subdivision flag. The Stet flag positioned above the subdivision flag.

Churches must not fly any flags unless they are flags representing Christ in one fashion or another.

The way that the uS flag is displayed follows a code that contains no enforcement nor penalties, ie is not a law.
http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sup_01_4.html
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html


By the way, here in Texas, everytime that the "pledge" to the uS flag is recited we are supposed to also recite the pledge to the Texas flag. The code has no enforcement nor penalties.
[INDENT]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/GV/content/htm/gv.011.00.003100.00.htm#3100.101.00

[exmarine]

I also know that the Crown Rights of my King supercede Uncle Sam's. If Uncle Sam intends to contest the throne, he will suffer a Psalm 2 problem.

Now the crux: It seems to me that if the Church is unwilling to contest for the Crown Rights of its King, the King will remove the authority He once gave from the Church. If a church ceases to be the creature of God and is the incorporated creature of the State, it will be removed to make room for the true Church.

I concur with the premise in this thread. No King but Jesus - that was the slogan in revolutionary America. I absolutely agree about the incorporation issue. The church is not a corporation, yet the vast number of churches play this game, and in so doing, agree to limit their speech from the pulpit, so that they will not have to pay taxes. Is this placing mammon over God?

The bible teaches separation of church and state but not separate of the state and God (which is what the courts, ACLU and Americans United are trying to accomplish). God gave the tribe of Levi authority over all temple ceremony, and the tribe of Judah the civil authority to rule the people. Each time that separation was violated, there was severe judgment, to wit: King Saul did not wait for Samuel and made sacrifices to the Lord and this is the reason God removed him as King; King Uzziah was afflicted with leprosy for liffe because he acted performed the duties of a Levite priest and offered sacrifices to the Lord (2Chr 26). And King Uzziah was a righteous king. These men crossed the line and were judged. How much more then will men be judged who (unlike Saul and Uzziah who merely acted in the role of priest), are trying to remove God as sovereign.

The church and the state are separate institutions of God, and God is sovereign over both. It is improper for the State to interefere with the church and try to insert itself as sovereign. Unfortunately, that is precisely what is happening. The tyrants in black robes have taken the law into their own hands (with the help of the God-haters of the ACLU, AU, ABA, etc.). Lex Rex (Law is king) is being turned on its head to the point that secular-humanism (read: atheism) has become the de facto state religion in my country.

[Jaime]

Could you post the reference where "the tribe of Judah the civil authority to rule the people?"

Here is what I got, in reverse order.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=10&version=31
1 Samuel 10
1 Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on Saul's head and kissed him, saying, "Has not the LORD anointed you leader over his inheritance?
(snip)
24 Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see the man the LORD has chosen? There is no one like him among all the people."
Then the people shouted, "Long live the king!"
(snip)

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=9&version=31
1 Samuel 9
1 There was a Benjamite, a man of standing, whose name was Kish son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Becorath, the son of Aphiah of Benjamin. 2 He had a son named Saul, an impressive young man without equal among the Israelites—a head taller than any of the others.
(snip)
21 Saul answered, "But am I not a Benjamite, from the smallest tribe of Israel, and is not my clan the least of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why do you say such a thing to me?"
(snip)


http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=8&version=31

1 Samuel 8

1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have."

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle [b] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."
Then Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Everyone go back to his town."

[exmarine]

Could you post the reference where "the tribe of Judah the civil authority to rule the people?"

Here is what I got, in reverse order.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=10&version=31
1 Samuel 10
1 Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on Saul's head and kissed him, saying, "Has not the LORD anointed you leader over his inheritance?
(snip)
24 Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see the man the LORD has chosen? There is no one like him among all the people."
Then the people shouted, "Long live the king!"
(snip)

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=9&version=31
1 Samuel 9
1 There was a Benjamite, a man of standing, whose name was Kish son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Becorath, the son of Aphiah of Benjamin. 2 He had a son named Saul, an impressive young man without equal among the Israelites—a head taller than any of the others.
(snip)
21 Saul answered, "But am I not a Benjamite, from the smallest tribe of Israel, and is not my clan the least of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why do you say such a thing to me?"
(snip)


http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=8&version=31

1 Samuel 8

1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have."

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle [b] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."
Then Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Everyone go back to his town."

Please refer to 1Sa 13:7-14. Saul did not wait for Samuel to arrive, but acted as priest in his stead and offered a burnt offering. When Samuel arrives, he said "What have you done?" (v.11ff) Saul replied, "When I saw that the men were scattering, and that you did not come at the set time, and that the Philistines were assembling at Micmash...So, I felt compelled to offer the burnt offering."
Samuel replied (v.13ff): "You acted foolishly...you have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. But now, your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appinted him leader of his people"

Note that the Lord did not judge Saul for going after David, or other sins, but for sacrificing in Samuel's place. He crossed a line.

The royal bloodline of the kings of Israel came from the tribe of Judah ....from King David on down. Jesus is the culmination of this bloodline in Judah and Luke and Matthew take pains to catalog the geneology. However, Jesus is the only one who has the authority to rule over both the spiritual and the civil and he is not only King of Israel but King of the church, Lord over governments, and final Judge of all men. God is the ONLY one who can be trusted with all 3 branches off government, as per Isaiah 33:22: "The LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king" Amazing verse isn't it?

Clearly, the church and State are separate institutions with separate authority and responsibilities. In our Republic, the church has authority over matters concerned with Commandments 1-4 (man's duty to God); while the State has authority over matters dealing with man's relationship to man (Commandments 5-10). The State has no authority to say anything about man's beliefs toward God, since this is a matter solely between God and the consience of each individual -- and this is the safeguard that our founders sought to establish, i.e. that the State has no authority over the church and may not establish a State church that would illegitimately dictate that men adhere to certain religious belief which are matters of conscience. Or, put another way, it is internal government (dealing with the church and man's direct relationship with and duty toward God) and external government (laws that keep sinful behavior in check and administer justice where needed). Of course, internal government is where "virtue" comes into play and where the sinful behavior of men is restrained by their fear and love of God and His moral laws.

[Jaime]

I knew about Saul's illegitimate sacrifice. I was not questioning that. I was asking about Judah being the civil ruler.

My point being that the idea of a human king to rule over the people was not God's idea but of sinfull Israel's. I wanted to post what God's opinion of kings is - to paraphrase, kings are a bad idea.

[Jaime]

Okay, because of David's bloodline. Got it.

God has inherent authority because he is, the one and only true, God and creator of all things created. All other authorities are derived and subject to the higher authority and cannot rule outside the limits imposed by that higher authority.

God chooses to work good through what men meant for evil.

The whole idea of kings and earthly rulers is man's. God's people were to be governed by God Himself, through prophets and patriarchs.

[exmarine]

Okay, because of David's bloodline. Got it.

God has inherent authority because he is, the one and only true, God and creator of all things created. All other authorities are derived and subject to the higher authority and cannot rule outside the limits imposed by that higher authority.

God chooses to work good through what men meant for evil.

The whole idea of kings and earthly rulers is man's. God's people were to be governed by God Himself, through prophets and patriarchs.

Certainly can't argue with that. Theocracy won't work for the same reason -- men are sinful and when given power they abuse it. So, in this fallen world, one attempt to deal with the problem of the sinfulness of men was to estabish a Constitutional Republic founded on biblical moral principles and separation of powers. Even then, we have had limited success. Even at the height of its success (during the founding era), the system fell far short of perfect. Virtue (the by-product of God-fearing self-restraint and discipline) was the key to its success, and there is a serious dearth of that these days. Liberty has morphed into licentiousness.

But, as history teaches us, sin progressively warps and corrodes everything over time. Unfortunatley, we are now living through the total collapse of that system due to the sinfulness of man (lack of virtue in both the people and rulers).

[exmarine]

Okay, because of David's bloodline. Got it.

God has inherent authority because he is, the one and only true, God and creator of all things created. All other authorities are derived and subject to the higher authority and cannot rule outside the limits imposed by that higher authority.

God chooses to work good through what men meant for evil.

The whole idea of kings and earthly rulers is man's. God's people were to be governed by God Himself, through prophets and patriarchs.

I toured Israel last year and one of the things that captivated me the most was the full-size replica of the Tabernacle. What really captivated me was the love of God represented by the various objects and symbols. For example, inside the sanctuary of the Tabernacle was a life-size manikin dressed in biblically accurate garments of the high priest. I noted his shoulder boards, each one emblazoned with the name of 6 tribes of Israel. That reminded me that Jesus is my High Priest and just as the high priest of Israel carried Israel on his shoulders, Jesus carries me on His. I strongly felt the love of God that day as I toured the tabernacle.

No king but Jesus.

[Jaime]

One day I'll go to Jerusalem too.

[TimV]

The royal bloodline of the kings of Israel came from the tribe of Judah

That was just during one specific time. There were other times God chose others, not just from Benjamin, but from Joseph also. Originally, it was, of course, Benjamin, then Judah, and then it got more complicated, with Elijah being commanded to annoint a man of Joseph as King over Israel. The promises to Judah were mostly conditional, like the promises to the Jews as a race.

[Patriot 2]

Christ bows to no one.

The "Christian" flag was nowhere in scripture (that one is for you TimV).

I would have left it off to the side, also, not lowering the state flag.

BTW- who really cares what Jewish tribe is what, other than historical interest.

Accept Christ and live in him= salvation
Actively deny/reject him= ****ation.

It really is that simple.

[toddpedlar]

Christ bows to no one.

The "Christian" flag was nowhere in scripture (that one is for you TimV).

I would have left it off to the side, also, not lowering the state flag.

BTW- who really cares what Jewish tribe is what, other than historical interest.

Accept Christ and live in him= salvation
Actively deny/reject him= ****ation.

It really is that simple.

Simpler still. You don't need your second line (which is too
narrowly defined - one needn't *actively* do anything for
the result you've got there...)

(but we digress)

Todd

[TimV]

The "Christian" flag was nowhere in scripture (that one is for you TimV).

What drugs are you taking? Be honest.

[PappaSmurf]

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I was raised in a "Christian" home, went to private "Christian" school from pre~K to 12th, have attended 5 colleges 1 of them "Christian" as well.
In school every day they began with the pledge. I thought it odd however that ever since my re-birth in Yeshua my Messiah (Jesus the Christ) at age 13 that I could no longer recite the pledge. It seemed to grieve the Holy Spirit inside me. This troubled me and I prayed alot about it. This is where I was led.

It is simply Idolatry.

Then God spoke all these words, saying.
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:1-6)

We having been purchased out of our slavery, are being asked to voluntarily re-enter into it. The United States has no power, but such as has been given to it by God. This is not one that God gave it, so powerlessly it asks for us to submit ourselves to it. May it never be. The flag of the USA is a idol that symbolises a great nation that has lost its way. Likewise the "Christian" flag is a idol we have chosen. It is just as wrong, though originally just as well intentioned. The smallest of good deeds outweighs the grandest of good intentions.

[Will]

And no, I do not recite the pledge.

Jaime:

Correct me if I am wroong. I gather from other messages that you have posted that your allegiance belongs to God and not to the flag nor nation for which it stands.

A lot has been made of the addition of the words "under God" to the pledge lately. Maybe part of the reason was because, as they say, people didn't want to be associated with the godless Soviet Union. The major reason the words were added was because Christians of the time (Christians were much more loyal to the teachings of Christ in those days) refused to say the pledge. They refused to pledge allegiance to anything or anyone but God. They believed that it violated the commandment about making graven images.

The ACLU and judges have driven God from the nation and are trying to remove the words from the pledge. They should be removed. This nation is no longer "under God". I have always said the pledge when it was recited, but I am going to stop now, like Jaime.

Isn't ironic that now some people refuse to say the pledge because those words are in it. Perhaps the Christians should have a pledge of allegiance to God and recite it loudly when they are participating in a pledge of allegiance situation.

[TimV]

The whole idea of the pledge was to rub the nose of Southerners into the ground. It had nothing to do with Christianity or your great spirit. We don't say it either.